ReligionDispatches.org

We see by the graphs that the UCC and TEC were the first and second most liberal clergy. What was the fastest declining denomination this year? The UCC (declining 6.01%). What was the fastest declining denomination last year? The TEC. And the TEC will most likely be the fastest declining next year when the exiting of the four dioceses is taken into account and also the following year when the ramifications of the decisions made are reflected.

Ironic that the "inclusive" churches are becoming very Caucasian and 100% liberal. Previously, when the denomination was the "Republican party at prayer", the entire spectrum of views were represented. Now, the inclusivists will broker no deviation from the "gay is OK" line. A little noticed alteration in the disciplinary canons slipped through will make it easier for the leftist leadership to complete the pogrom.

The UCC has about 1.2 million members. There are also about 1.2 million lawyers in the US. Nobody says that there aren't "enough" lawyers.

The story is never truly about numbers--it's about relevance. And for Christians, relevance means heeding God's call as best we can make it out.

As a member of the UCC clergy, I'd love to have more people become UCC. But I am more concerned that we stay relevant to God's call to compassion, inclusion, and justice.

Two prophetic visions aptly describe the UCC and the TEC. The first was from Paul, almost scarily prescient in his accurate description:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3

The second was from 70 years ago, but again a remarkably accurate description:

"The price we are having to pay today in the shape of the collapse of the organised church is only the inevitable consequence of our policy of making grace available to all at too low a cost. We gave away the word and sacraments wholesale, we baptised, confirmed, and absolved a whole nation without condition. Our humanitarian sentiment made us give that which was holy to the scornful and unbelieving... But the call to follow Jesus in the narrow way was hardly ever heard." Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

Relevant? By watering down the life giving message of Jesus to an insipid broth?

As an Episcopalian, I am fully supportive of inclusion of the LGBT community in the Church.

During any minute of any day, there is something being said or an act performed by the "orthodox" to which these two statements can be applied. Scripture can be used to subjugate (as in the case of women and blacks and others of color) or it can be used to liberate. Liberation is not cheap grace nor for the faint of heart as clearly evidenced by conversatives and orthodox persons who find it so very difficult to free their own hearts and minds to the liberating power of God's love. At the end of the day, Jesus, the prophets, et.al. stood with the "least of these." Why is it so very difficult for some to see and understand this critical thrust in Scripture?

I also want to be found standing with the most marginalized and despised of society come judgment day. Join me! "The banquet is open to all who are willing to sit down with all." John Shea

Bonhoeffer was talking about Nazi Germany when he said "we absolved a whole nation without condition."

The "T" in TEC stands for "the", so you don't have to use it before TEC so much!

And if we're going to play the numbers game, Robroy, what are we going to make of the report in Christian Century, June 17, 2009, that the number of baptisms in the Southern Baptist Convention is at its lowest level in two decades, and that stalwartly anti-gay church is losing members?

As is the stalwartly gay Catholic church. According to Pew Foundation statistics--one in three American adults who were raised Catholic have left the Catholic church and one in ten adult Americans is now a former Catholic.

If we're going to play the numbers game, let's at least be consistent. The anti-gay churches aren't setting the world on fire with conversions, or even retaining their members.

"If we're going to play the numbers game, let's at least be consistent." OK, let's be consistent

The SBC lost 40,000 members out of 16 million. That's 0.25%. They are in crisis mode because of this. They are rededicating themselves to evangelization. In contrast, the UCC lost membership at a rate 25 times that(!). Their response? "Numbers aren't everything. We pander to the lowest common denominator, so we're relevant."

The Episcopal denomination is falling at rate 7 times the SBC. Their response? Hire phonies like Diana Butler Bass to tell them that "All is well." Eliminate the evangelism program (but the lawsuits cost budget item is the fastest growing). (The cutting of the entire evangelism budget really did happen last week.)

The statistics you cite about former Catholics don't give a comparison, so it isn't possible to "be consistent." They only reflect that the RC church is so much bigger than these tiny and rapidly getting tinier denominations.

But we can look at decline. Despite continued ramifications of the clergy abuse scandals, the RC church only fell by 0.59. I am confident that as they put the abuse scandal behind them, the RC church will start growing again. That is being consistent.

It's easy to twist numbers into any argument you want to make. Without references, I don't believe your claim that the UCC would make a comment like "We pander to the lowest common denominator, so we're relevant." I resent that remark as a gay man whether it comes from you or some bubba elsewhere. I have a degree in biology and chemistry, served in the military 5 years during Viet Nam and retired after 33 years from Veterans Affairs. If you or anyone else sees that as "lowest common denominator" YOU have self-esteem issues, not me.

Numbers don't matter. It's the gospel that matters. Robroy would just rather have the church buy into nothing but cheap grace. It's pretty easy to say "no gays" and "believe" in Jesus, but there's nothing costly in the reactionary vision of Christianity. It's more radical--love your neighbors means putting your neck on the line for the poor and the oppressed, radical inclusive communal trust and living the word. Just another shopping experience that requires nothing beyond mere "belief" without any meaningful sacrifice. In fact, when a church goes the distance and performs the faith justly they will no doubt alienate many people. "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Growth could even be a sign of irrelevance--as Walter Brueggemann has said "if you're not creating new worlds, you're serving the old one. And that's no fun."

However, simply saying that the church must be "relevant" isn't the answer, and the mainline churches (especially my own United Church of Canada) have made a mistake in this regard. Rather than offering an alternative biblically informed, church based social politics to counter that of the powers that be, they wish to conform the church to the dominant secular mainstream. They call for justice, meaning they want their members to vote for liberal Democrats, rather than be called out to transform their lives and churches to live faithfully to the gospel. The church must stand against the false gods of consumption, greed, and the wanton destruction and desecration of human life in every aspect of living, not merely in the "public" sphere. "Believing" and identifying as "progressives" isn't enough. How can we speak to the evils of our societies when we ourselves haven't shaken it's hold on us?

The Episcopal church has taken a good step and has done a wonderful thing--but the proof will be on the ground in congregational life, not in opinion polls or attendance at the next Rolling Thunder tour.

Ryan, I agree -- the point must never be relevance for the sake of relevance. I've expressed myself poorly if that's what I've said.

We're called to serve a Word that is always finding new situations and new lives to challenge as well as comfort. And that is true for Progressives as well as all others. We can be much too quick to equate one particular political party or set of cultural assumptions with righteousness, and our our lack of humility can be as pronounced and off-putting as anyone else's.

But relevant also means engaged--engaged in serving the world, engaged in asking questions about who is excluded and why, and engaged in inviting people to see themselves in the light of God's grace.

And that kind of relevance is exactly how grace starts to become costly...and salvific...and not just some sort of feel good denominational platform.

Well said. We've got some light to shine and it can't be done through reports or policy or simple lobbying--nothing less than words made flesh will do.

What a lot of disingenuous cant. "Biblically informed, church based social politics" means "a church hijacked for my political purposes." The bottom line on this subject is that as a result of the "cheap grace" of secular election, a gang of disgusting perverts have been invited to prance around in solemn robes and hats whilst pretending to be priests and bishops.

No, it isn't easy to say "no gays", but what TEC has just done has made it much, much easier.

And you don't think condemning our friends and fellow Christians as "disgusting perverts" isn't an attempt to "hijack" the gospel for your own purposes? I guess we can just pray for you.

"a gang of disgusting perverts have been invited to prance around in solemn robes and hats whilst pretending to be priests and bishops."

Jesus said:

Matthew 5

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

May God keep and bless you.

Robroy cites 2 Timothy 4:3 as a prophetic vision of St. Paul. Obviously Robroy does not subscribe to the nearly universally accepted notion that Paul was not the author of either 1 or 2 Timothy or Titus. The authors of these letters call on Paul's authority to modify the radical message of inclusiveness preached by Jesus and adopted and spread by Paul. Perhaps the better passage to remember is from a genuine letter from Paul to the believers at Galatia. Paul says, "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." A most radical and inclusive idea for the first century and clearly in line with the life and teachings of Christ. If The Episcopal Church has to walk alone to be true to the Gospel of Christ, so be it. Many of the same arguments and narrowly literal interpretations of scripture were used to support slavery and to deny women the right to fully participate in ministry. We survived those changes (and the Anglican Communion still does not accept these changes in some provinces and dioceses) and followed the guidance of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. Thanks be to God that our clergy and laity listen to the Spirit talking to them.

Consecrating gay bishops should not be controversial - its not new at all. For the first 1200 years of church history, there were many openly homosexual bishops. In 1098, for example, John of Orleans was consecrated bishop, although it was well known that he was the lover of Ralph the Archbishop of Tours, and had been the lover of a previous archbishop , of the French king, and of many other prominent men. There was strong opposition to the appointment on the basis of his youth - not sexuality or promiscuity - but the appointment went ahead. Back in the 4th Century, St Paulinus of Nola had a male lover to whom he addressed frankly erotic poetry - which may be read today n the Penguin Book of Homosexual Verse.

(See John Boswell, Christianity, social Tolerance and homosexuality; or go to : Gay Bishops in Church History

I notice that many of the so-called "traditionalist" put a lot of stock in numbers i.e. "X number of people have left the Episcopal Church." It seems that, to these people, truth and God's Words consist of popularity contests. Whether my church (The Episcopal Church) loses or gains members, we have struck a solid blow for justice during our 2009 General Convention.

Jesus never engaged in a popularity contest when He was among human beings here on Earth. He engaged in giving us the Word.

As others have already hinted, if conservative churches saw declining membership, they would respond by saying "the truth is unpopular" and that it is the wide road that leads to destruction. But it never occurs to them that the same explanation might fit when liberal denominations are declining.

I've posted some thoughts on inclusivity and the Bible on my own blog, in response to some assertions made earlier today by Cal Thomas.